TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON JOHN HOWARD MP
INTERVIEW ON SUNDAY PROGRAMME WITH LAURIE OAKES, NETWORK NINE

11 February 2001

OAKES: Mr Howard, welcome to Sunday.

PRIME MINISTER: Good to be back.

OAKES: Now how surprised were you by the West Australian result?

PRIME MINISTER: Oh, I thought it was going to be very tight. Perhaps the swing is a bit bigger than a lot of us hoped it might be but the state government there over the last year has been, you know, had a number of difficult issues to handle. So ...

OAKES: You think the scandals were a major factor?

PRIME MINISTER: Oh, when you've had a loss, I mean it's important to sort of step back and let the people who have suffered the loss do their analysis. But it was overwhelmingly something decided on state issues. That is normally the case in this country.

OAKES: I mean, it wasn't just a defeat. Richard Court was swept from office. Is there a message there for you?

PRIME MINISTER: Well I'm never complacent about these things and any prime minister who says he ignores state election results is not telling the truth. But I do think people bring different judgements to bear. And look at Queensland in 1998 when the Borbidge government was defeated yet a little later in the federal election, although we lost some of the miracle gains of '96, we still performed very well. New South Wales elections, we really held on very well federally in New South Wales in '98 yet Carr had a sweeping win the following year so people bring different judgements to bear. It may be that on certain points in electoral history they bring the same separate, the separate judgements reach the same conclusion...

OAKES: Quite so.

PRIME MINISTER: ... they coincide. But look I think it was a result that was in contemplation. I mean, it's not a shock result in the sense that the Victorian result was. And I think Richard Court knew that he had a tough fight. He told me that before the election. I spoke to him earlier this morning and he was obviously disappointed but philosophical and he's a seasoned politician who understood the challenges of trying to win a third time.

OAKES: But this must ring alarm bells for you. You're trying to win a third time as well.

PRIME MINISTER: It doesn't ring alarm bells but Laurie, I don't need to be told not to be complacent about the next federal election. I know it'll be a tough fight but we'll be confronting people with a choice. I mean, in the end, people have got to decide whether they want a Beazley Labor government or a Howard Liberal government and increasingly over the next few months, we'll be confronting people with that choice.

OAKES: Do you see this as triumph for Pauline Hanson?

PRIME MINISTER: No, I think that would be a mistake. The vote that One Nation has achieved is almost identical to the vote it achieved in the federal election in Western Australia.

OAKES: But since the federal election, it's fallen apart.

PRIME MINISTER: Mm.

OAKES: It has come back remarkably, hasn't it?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'd like to analyse where it occurred. I'd particularly like to have a look at the vote in the forestry seats. I don't know what the figures are there but certainly there was quite a sharp difference between the policies of the federal coalition government and the state coalition on forestry issues. And whether that was a factor in some of those regional seats that unexpectedly went against the government I don't know.

OAKES: Now do you hold the view that One Nation elected a Labor government in the West?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, once again Laurie, I've got to have a look at the full distribution. I think it's very important that you don't make knee jerk reactions. Clearly people who were former Liberals and who followed the One Nation how to vote card in those seats that were being preferenced by One Nation, were effectively voting for a change of government. And one of the things I'll be doing over the next few months is saying to people who were in that category, remember that if you vote against sitting members, you are inevitably voting against a change of government.

OAKES: Now this obviously raises the question, were the West Australian Liberals wrong to put One Nation last? And was John Howard wrong in urging them to do so?

PRIME MINISTER: No, well I don't think I was wrong. My view on that has not changed. But what I will be saying to One Nation voters is that if you vote for a party that has a policy of preferencing against incumbent governments, you are in effect voting for a change of government. So a One Nation voter who is by normal inclination a Liberal, if he or she follows that advice is really voting for a Labor government. And I think that is a message that should be communicated. I think they are quite separate things. I think the other thing on preferences is that I think the Labor Party particularly in Queensland should be put more under the spotlight. We are constantly being asked to choose between One Nation and Labor. Yet Mr Beattie in Queensland has never been put under any pressure to choose between Liberal and National and One Nation. He's saying vote one Labor and then do what you like. Well that's not putting One Nation last.

OAKES: No it's not.

PRIME MINISTER: It's being hypocritical and two faced.

OAKES: Now Pauline Hanson says that she will put sitting members last in the federal election as well if the major parties won't talk to One Nation about preferences. Will the Liberal Party talk to One Nation about preferences?

PRIME MINISTER: Our position and my view and I mean I believe these things are determined by the organisation but my view on that is not going to alter. The way to deal with One Nation is to address the issues of concern in the community that encourage people to think that the simplistic responses of One Nation are the answer. You don't cure those problems by backroom deals. Indeed part of the discontent factor in politics at the present time is a reaction against backroom deals and I don't think that is the answer.
The answer is to address the concerns people have, be honest about it, tell them what you can do, but also tell them what nobody can do. I mean, there are some things that you can't alter, there are things you can and you've got to try and address the areas of concern. But, secret deals and playing footsie with parties is not really the way to do it.

OAKES: You mention Peter Beattie, the polls suggest that the Queensland election next Saturday will bring more bad news for the Coalition. Have you steeled yourself for that?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I've had so many experiences in political life I'm sort of permanently steeled for anything.

OAKES: Fair bit of scar tissue there too I guess. But, do you think One Nation will again show a resurgence in Queensland? Do you expect a big result in that?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, One Nation when you talk about a resurgence, One Nation got what, twenty-three per cent ...

OAKES: It did, but then it ...

PRIME MINISTER: In the last Queensland election.

OAKES: ... then it split badly.

PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm ... Laurie you know often my response is I'm a player ...

OAKES: You're not a commentator.

PRIME MINISTER: I'm a player, you're the commentator. You tell me, I mean, you're the expert on ... you're the commentator.

OAKES: Yeah, but you must have a view so that then you can plan your response.

PRIME MINISTER: Of course I have views but I mean, I'm also the federal parliamentary leader of the Coalition and I, you know, I've got obligations and I'll be sticking to those.

OAKES: Now you maintain that this was purely fought on state issues. But, federal issues did have a role, didn't they? For example, wasn't there clearly a layer of resentment there about the GST and the BAS statements?

PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe so, I mean, the WA government was in political trouble quite some time ago for local reasons. I mean, you know, we've got to call a spade a spade. I mean, that was the reality of it. And the idea that, you know, you can always sort of hive off responsibility to somebody else, and to his credit Richard didn't try and do that last night when I spoke to him and hasn't tried to do it publicly and I think he's handled himself with very great dignity. But, in the end, people do overwhelming decide state elections on state issues.

OAKES: But, I'm not relying just on the state Liberals or the Nationals. Pauline Hanson said it's a backlash against John Howard and the GST.

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I mean, she would say that. I mean, it's in her interests to say that. That doesn't make it true. I mean, we've got to look at the objective evidence. And the objective evidence is that there were challenges for the Western Australian government over the last twelve months that impacted very heavily on voters’ assessments. And, as I think I said earlier, you can go all around the states and find plenty of history.
But, I mean, I would expect Pauline Hanson to say that. Kim Beazley incidentally hasn't said that.

OAKES: But, while we're on the subject ...

PRIME MINISTER: I mean, Mr Beazley actually, if my recollection serves me correctly, said before the Western Australian election -- well before -- that it would be determined predominantly on state issues. Now, he can hardly now turn around, and I haven't heard him yet - ...

OAKES: No, I haven't either.

PRIME MINISTER: I stress yet -- say it's due to the GST or it's due to this or that or the other.

OAKES: While we're on that subject. I mean, you've undertaken to do something to simplify the BAS forms. When will Cabinet look at that?

PRIME MINISTER: Very soon Laurie.

OAKES: Tomorrow?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, Cabinet's meeting tomorrow. That's pretty soon.

OAKES: ... we can take that as a yes?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I never normally confirm Cabinet agendas, but it's a high priority, we've done a lot of work on it and we obviously want to get this fixed up. And we always said that we'd be willing to fine tune the implementation if problems were arising.

OAKES: And substantial change being looked at?

PRIME MINISTER: Changes people will like. They won't undermine the integrity of the system and they won't imperil the collections under the system. But, they will make it easier for people who want it made easier. Not everybody wants it changed.

OAKES: What about annual reporting?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, every option’s on the table.

OAKES: Prime Minister, we will take a commercial break and come back and talk about the impact of petrol and road funding on the Western Australian election.

PRIME MINISTER: Sure.

[Commercial break]

OAKES: Welcome back. Prime Minister, you can't deny, can you, that petrol prices were a big issue in the Western Australian election?

PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe they were, you know, the predominant determinate. No, I don't. I think people do, I mean, we've had a long talk about this earlier and I think people do separate out the situation and I think they do make judgments according to their assessments of the two sides of politics.
And, Laurie, the essential preconditions for the defeat of a government are normally established months before a campaign starts. A campaign can have an impact on the quantum, but if the essential preconditions for the defeat of the Court government had not existed well before the campaign started, you would not have had the result you had yesterday.

OAKES: But the so-called roads funding scandal that hit the headlines on Friday, on the eve of the election, presumably put petrol back in people's minds. In fact, the Deputy Liberal Leader Colin Barnett, said that the road funding issue on the eve of the election was the final kick in the groin for the Coalition in the west?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes well I, of course, reject that. I mean, that's just somebody who is -- with great respect to Colin --sort of unable to look at himself and his colleagues. I mean, look, we all, in a Federation, the states are very keen to assert their independence in action -- and that's fine.
But they also have to accept responsibility for the political consequences of what they do. And I can only say again that -- which is self-evident -- that the preconditions were there months before. And I know enough about politics and I think others in the WA Liberal Party know enough about politics to realise that there were some domestic reasons why there was an element of unhappiness and discontent in Western Australia, and there were a few problems, let me say, in their own campaign. I don't want to dwell on this, but equally I'm not going to sit by and just cop what I regard as unreasonable observations.

OAKES: But that road funding issue, that broke on Friday is presumably likely to make voters more inclined to take the baseball bat to you when your turn comes?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, Laurie, the voters will do what they choose to do to me when the time comes. I mean, can I simply say of that issue, there has been no short-changing of motorists. That is a debate about classifications. There are some issues of compliance involved which are going to be attended to, but let me, you know, make it very clear that we have not under-spent two-point-nine billion dollars.
I mean, that is, it is a debate about classifications, in fact, if you look at the aggregate amount of money the federal government has spent on roads in the last financial year it’s the equivalent of six-point-one cents a litre of excise, yet the two-point-nine billion dollars is calculated on a figure, notionally, of four-point-nine-five cents a litre.

OAKES: But you can't get away from the fact that the government didn't observe the law and perceptions are what matters in politics -- there's clearly a perception in the electorate that the government illegally diverted two-point-nine billion dollars from national road funding. In fact, I mean, headlines like Highway Robbery must really dismay you?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, but I'm not going to be driven, you know, and told by headlines something that is not correct. I mean look, there was advice given -- or the decision taken, I'm sorry -- by the Department during the Keating years -- which, incidentally was never communicated to the incoming government -- to allow to fall into disuse a particular accounting way of handling road funding.
But it, I mean, the bottom line is how much you spend on roads. That's what motorists are interested in. And this Auditor General's report has in no way demonstrated that we have short-changed people, what it has shown is that a particular accounting method that, strictly speaking, should have been followed, wasn't followed. That's what it's showing.

OAKES: Now, how did the government come to mismanage the handling of this issue so badly?

PRIME MINISTER: I'm sorry?

OAKES: Well, I mean, you complained on Friday morning you hadn't been told about, that you read it in the paper...

PRIME MINISTER: Oh, that's something, I mean the question of communicating the information to me, well, that's something that I'm attending to ...

OAKES: It was politically disastrous, wasn't it? The way it was dealt with on Friday?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I didn't... I mean, I can only repeat what is the truth, that I had not been informed of it and I've made the ... I've ... look
I'm not going to go into the detail of that. I mean, that is an internal matter that I'm dealing with.

OAKES: Presumably you're not particularly happy with your Transport Minister for not telling you on Thursday night ...

PRIME MINISTER: Look John Anderson is the Deputy Prime Minister, he has my total support and confidence...

OAKES: Does he have a bruised backside...

PRIME MINISTER: Look, Laurie, next question.

OAKES: But surely, I mean, you must be worried, when an issue like this arises, the government mishandles it so badly, it's not very good at the start of an election year, is it?

PRIME MINISTER: Ask me another question.

OAKES: Okay, another question. You're one minister short ...

PRIME MINISTER: Mmm.

OAKES: Mal Brough hasn't been sworn in pending a Federal Police report on allegations about his staff and electoral, fraudulent enrolment?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, we won't be one minister short for much longer. I was notified just recently that the Police have given him a clean bill of health, I've been informed of that by the Minister for Police and Customs. And I've had formal advice from my department that there is no impediment now in the way of his being sworn in.
I always believed that Mal would be fully exonerated. He handled himself very well on this. He said, I don't want to be sworn in until the air is clear. And I'm delighted, because he'll make a great minister and I look forward to welcoming him and I'll be making arrangements immediately for a swearing in ceremony to take place next week. He will be there on the front bench as Minister for Employment Services when parliament resumes in a couple of weeks time.

OAKES: Okay. Now the Federal Police have dealt with the issue involving one of your front benchers in a fortnight. Wayne Swan is still suspended from the Opposition front bench pending a police investigation that's supposed to have started, what, two and a half months ago, how do you explain the discrepancy?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, Laurie, you ask the police.

OAKES: But does it ...

PRIME MINISTER: No, no, hang on ...

OAKES: ... does it concern you the appearance that they give priority to government requests?

PRIME MINISTER: Now hang on a minute, you're all the time ... you say you know the appearance, I mean, they're your words not mine. I mean, the circumstances, with great respect, without knowing anything more than I ought to know are different. I mean, the allegation in the case of Swan is about his conduct. The allegation here is not about Brough's conduct but about the conduct of Brough's employees.

OAKES: You didn't ask the police to give this priority over the Swan case?

PRIME MINISTER: Look, Laurie, the thing is being handled quite properly. I’ve had no ... I’ve had no contact with the police. And, look, I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with Swan. But there there was an allegation that he was involved in a preference deal and he was personally involved in it. No such allegation was made about Brough but for the sake of more abundant caution and the perception of doing things correctly he said, don't swear me in until I've been given a clean bill of health.

OAKES: But two months does seem ridiculous. But I'll move on.

PRIME MINISTER: Well you ... you know, I mean, it may but you don't know the circumstances of it. But I can tell you this there's certainly been no pressure brought to bear on the police in any way to delay the Swan investigation. We're not into that business. I mean, I hope for the sake of his own reputation he's cleared. I don't want ... you know, I'm not particularly interested in unfairly pursuing those things.

OAKES: President Wahid in Indonesia has told the Nine Network he is visiting Australia in April, have you had official confirmation of that?

PRIME MINISTER: Not formally. I mean, I hope it's right and he's very welcome. There have been indications before that have not been borne out by the reality. But President Wahid is very welcome in this country and I've had a number of very positive meetings with him since he became president. I know how important the relationship is and I hope he does come in April.

OAKES: Are you concerned that he appears to be almost crippled politically?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm, always a little bit careful about what I say about the domestic affairs of another country, particularly Indonesia. But it's a tough call to be President of Indonesia. It's a very big country. He's associated with the transition to democracy. He's done a number of very far sighted things. He's self evidently got a lot of domestic political challenges and a lot of domestic political barriers. But my interest and Australia's interest is in a strong, stable, increasingly democratic Indonesia.
And also we have a very strong interest in having a good relationship between our two countries. But it's got to be a relationship of mutual respect, a relationship that recognises that we are different countries and different societies but that shouldn't stop us getting on providing we respect each other.

OAKES: I also want to ask you quickly about the Royal Dutch Shell bid to takeover Woodside Petroleum which operates in the Northwest Shelf Oil and Gas Field, will the government intervene to stop that or to impose conditions if it goes ahead?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's a correct procedure to be followed which involves a recommendation by the Foreign Investment Review Board and then consideration by the Treasurer. And, you know, the law requires that natural justice be given to everybody. Can I, separately from that particular issue, just make the comment that I am concerned to ensure that this country does not become a branch office economy. Very concerned, and I think some of the views that have been expressed by people on this issue are very pertinent. And my commitment to globalisation, my commitment to open markets does not blind me to the reality that economic sovereignty and economic independence and economic dignity is a very important part of political independence and political dignity.

OAKES: So, can we afford to allow something like the Northwest Shelf to be controlled by the national oil company ...

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't ...

OAKES: ... of another country?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't want, Laurie, to talk about the specifics of that because I am constrained by the realities of how the law operates and it might be misunderstood by some people as in some way pre-empting the proper process. That is why I have said I won't talk about the details of that but I will separately state my view on the importance of national economic sovereignty.

OAKES: Prime Minister, we're out of time. We thank you.

PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.

END