TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON JOHN HOWARD MP
INTERVIEW WITH TRACY GRIMSHAW, THE TODAY SHOW
30 August 2001
GRIMSHAW:
Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Tracy.
GRIMSHAW:
With the failure of your emergency legislation last night and now that the Tampa is in Australian waters exactly what are your rights to forcibly turn the ship around?
PRIME MINISTER:
We still believe we have plenty of legal authority to do that. The legislation last night was to strengthen our legal position, to use that old legal expression, for more abundant caution. But we believe everything we’ve done to date has been perfectly legal and we naturally will continue to act in accordance with the law. But what the Labor Party did in the Senate last night was to block legislation that would have reinforced the right of any Australian government to order a ship out of Australian territorial waters. And I ought to point out that I offered Mr Beazley the option of a six month sunset clause. In other words, you could let the legislation operate for six months, that would take us beyond the next election and if he wins the election he would have been able to let the legislation expire but he knocked that back and that was his decision. We’ll just continue with the existing law, which we’re quite confident is adequate but in these things it’s always bett! er to have legal reinforcement.
GRIMSHAW:
All right, given that you now don’t have as abundant caution as perhaps you might have wanted, is it your understanding that if the Captain of the Tampa still refuses to turn around and head back out to international waters the SAS can now assume control of the ship and take it out themselves?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the SAS effectively are controlling the ship. I’m not going to, at the moment, speculate about what might happen in the next little while but let me tell you that everything we’ve done has been, on our advice, quite legal and everything we do in the future will be quite legal. But what we are determined to do is to defend the right of this country to control its borders. And this is what this is all about, it’s about the right of Australia to control the flow of people coming to this country.
GRIMSHAW:
But just – I’m not asking you to speculate, I guess I’m asking you to explain to me how you understand the law to be. Do you understand that your rights under the law would be to allow the SAS to assume control of the ship and steer it physically out into international waters if the Captain refuses?
PRIME MINISTER:
The legal position is that a ship is not entitled to remain in Australian territorial waters without our permission.
GRIMSHAW:
Did it not change the circumstances of Australia’s position when the skipper said he had a crisis on board, that he had passengers unconscious, threatening to hurl themselves overboard, didn’t that lawfully entitle him to come in?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Tracy, those claims, certainly in relation to health, have been proved to be wrong. The Australian Defence Force doctor disputed those claims. He told his Commanding Officer, who in turn told me, that there were no cases on board the vessel requiring medical evacuation. So that was a straight misrepresentation of the position. I don’t know about the threats of jumping overboard. I don’t know about that, I won’t comment on that. But we’ve had an Australian Defence Force doctor examine the medical condition of these people. He’s reported four cases of dehydration. He’s reported eight or ten cases of sprains and one what he calls a soft fracture. He said none of those require medical evacuation. He’s also said there is enough medicines and medical supplies on the vessel to look after the people. So the very basis that was telegraphed around the world for what the Captain did, in other words, the health emergency, was demonstrated by the inspection of an Australian Army doctor not to be correct.
GRIMSHAW:
All right. And yet the Captain probably is justified in feeling that he’s in a crisis at the moment. He’s sitting in no man’s land for a few days. He’s got people threatening to throw themselves overboard. Does that rest easily with your conscience?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, Tracy, I feel sorry for the Captain but I’ve got a responsibility to the Australian people and I’ve got to deal with the facts and the facts are that if this country continues to be seen as a soft option around the world as a country of destination this problem is going to magnify. I mean, you’ve got to understand that this is a situation that has its own special circumstances but it is also part of a wider pattern. And this country is seen because of the relative weakness of its laws and we’ve been trying to get stronger laws through the Parliament now for quite a while, it is seen as an easier destination than many other countries. Now, I feel sorry…I mean, I’m not blaming the Captain for, I mean, I praise him for rescuing the people – that was his obligation – but he then decided to take them to Indonesia and the people he rescued then applied duress to him and it was then that he decided to come to Christmas Island.
Now, I understand his position but the world has got to understand Australia’s position. And we have taken a view that we’re not going to permit this vessel to land in Australia and the people on that vessel to be landed in Australia.
GRIMSHAW:
Prime Minister, what might change your position? What if these people start throwing themselves overboard, what if they start throwing children overboard?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Tracy, I have learnt that you don’t hypothesise in situations like this. I’m not going to start hypothesising and I’m simply not going to answer hypothetical questions. We obviously are devoting all of our energy to this very difficult issue. It is a fraught, difficult issue but I have…ultimately my responsibility is to the welfare and the best interests of the Australian people and the national interest clearly requires us to defend the integrity of our borders.
GRIMSHAW:
All right. Norway has said that Australia’s action is absurd and inhumane. You have said that Norway has some obligation here but surely the obligation rests more with Indonesia. The rescue was effected in Indonesian waters and Indonesia was initially the first port of call. Are you putting more pressure on Indonesia here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Foreign Minister had a lengthy discussion with the Indonesian Foreign Minister last night, a very lengthy discussion. But we, of course, are urging Indonesia – I mean, what we would like to happen with Indonesia is for her to discuss with us a medium to long-term solution to the whole problem of the boat people. I raised this matter when I was in Jakarta several weeks ago and they indicated in principle that they’d be prepared to talk to us but they’re not at the moment indicating any hurry to reach some agreement on that but we are pressing the Indonesians as much as we can because it’s not just the Tampa, although there are special circumstances surrounding the Tampa. There is a longer term problem of this rising number of people who believe it is easy to come to Australia and certainly once you get here it’s much easier to stay than in many other countries.
GRIMSHAW:
If we could turn our attention, though, to the short-term crisis, the immediate crisis, which is an international incident now, why haven’t you spoken to Megawati Sukarnoputri, is she not taking your calls?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, the correct and sensible way of doing this – and I know on the basis of the earlier discussions I had with her a few weeks ago – is I want the discussion to take place with the Foreign Minister and I then I will be talking to Megawati in the next few days, I will seek o speak to her then. But the appropriate, sensible thing to engage their cooperation is to start at a Foreign Minister level.
GRIMSHAW:
But hasn’t this gone beyond Foreign Minister level now, don’t you need an immediate resolution?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Tracy, it’s not as easy as that. I mean, really, if there were an immediate resolution simply to be obtained by picking up a phone then I would have done it 48 hours ago but life isn’t as simple as that. I mean, we have been trying for months to enlist the cooperation of Indonesia in relation to the exiting of people and the use of Indonesia as a transit point but thus far they have been unwilling to cooperate. So, Tracy, it is not as easy as that and God willing it were.
GRIMSHAW:
I don’t suggest that anything in this situation is easy, Prime Minister. Just clarifying – no lessening in your resolve, you are not going to buckle today and allow these people in, is that what you’re saying?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I’m not. I’m not just speaking for myself, I mean, I am speaking for a government and can I say that in relation to the Tampa, the Opposition says it supports what we’ve done, although they voted against our legislation. But as far as we are concerned, we are resolved to maintain our course. We naturally will continue to talk to everybody, including the United Nations’ High Commission for Refugees. We’ve always been in good standing with them and we’ll continue to talk to them. And we would like to find that resolution of which you speak but there has to be a resolution that respects the right of Australia to control who comes to this country.
GRIMSHAW:
Okay, we’ll leave it there, many thanks for your time this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
END
